Magic trade with Detroit now official
The Magic have acquired the number two pick of the 2003 draft, center Darko Milicic, and PG Carlos Arroyo from Detroit in exchange for Kelvin Cato and the Magic's first round selection in either 2007 or 2008
posted by Mike from Illinois @ 11:15 PM
25 Comments:
At 11:28 PM,
Matt said…
Here we go again. Joe Dumars pulled a fast one on Wise Otis. We took a high-priced PG that we don't need with the glut of PGs that we have in addition to giving DET a protected first round pick. It's not for this year's draft and it is protected for 5th or higher pick in 2007 and not protected at all in 2008. Don't forget three points: 1) We dumped a player that would have been off of our books by next year without us raising a finger; 2) Arroyo is not worth 4 million and not easy to move … thus we are stuck with him for the next 2 years; 3) If Magic picks in the top 5 in 2007, their first round pick in 2008 regardless of the spot goes to DET. What a moron?
At 11:30 PM,
Matt said…
All the reports collaborate that if 2007 pick is 5th or higher thus going to Orlando, DET receives 2008 pick regardless of the spot. When asked about it in the press conference Otis was not clear and insinuated that DET gets nothing in 2008. Would be interesting to know what the truth is.
At 12:54 AM,
Ken said…
I quit believing anything that comes out of KingOtis' mouth. It's obvious he has no GM intelligence whatsover. but anyway..
I think this will be interesting to watch unfold. We can sure use another "Big" and maybe if given the chance, Millicic can become somewhat of a low post presence. He was so buried deep on the Pistons' bench I don't think he ever got any real minutes on the floor. Sorta like Deeener, a quality guy just itchin to show what he can do.
It's true we don't need another PG but I think this was done for one, of a couple of reasons, either: to be free to trade Francis to the NYK's or whomever, and not having to make sure we get another PG in return. Or possibly it's going to take Jameer longer than they expected to return to full duty, and Arroyo, a veteran, could fill that gap. Either way, I would rather see Deeener get a shot at the position. Hill must see him at practice. Any guy that can shoot the ball with that kind of consistancy had to be given at least, a few minutes a game. I don't give a crap how short he is and what BSHill says about matchups, the guy can shoot..
At 1:57 AM,
OVERWADED said…
I said what I thought about the trade in two earlier posts. I'm happy, and I'll leave it at that.
Otis has yet to do anything that really bothers me. He is doing what a GM does, keeping things quiet. Nobody ever likes a manager, or a boss, and as of now, he's yet to do anything to disappoint me. Of course you'll are going to say what about a waste of a pick last summer, you know what, whatever, Franz was said to be the most NBA ready player in the draft, and he seemed thrilled to come, but then bailed. You can't blame him, he is making more money over there. Anyway, I'm glad the trade is done. That should open the door, now all we need to do is kick Francis ass out. As for Darko, the Magic are rebuilding, and I pray, B Hill puts him out there, and gives him time to play, regardless how much he needs to learn. This guy needs to be welcomed with open arms. His confidence was shattered by Larry Brown and his dislike of rookies. Orlando needs to welcome him, and Hill needs to play him. Honestly, I'm worried on both accounts. Tonight's game was basically a sell out crowd, or so it looked, and there were far more people interested in seeing D Wade dunk than anything the Magic were doing. I truly can't imagine a worse group of fans. And I love the Magic...
At 7:33 AM,
WeRDevos said…
I'm pretty happy at the moment, and I'm supposed to be the pessimist.
1. If Magic had simply not resigned Cato they would not have gained a thing as they still would have been above the cap.
2. Darko is currently a bust. But he is 7'1" and has been banging against Big Ben in practice everyday. This it the best C prospect the Magic have had since whatshisname left.
3. 2 years ago Arroyo had a great year in Utah. His $4 million/yr contract is hardly unmoveable if it comes to that. He's currently a 4th PG but I never thought this trade made any sense unless there was a big salary dump coming.
4. This trade opens up a world of possibilities for dumping Francis. The simplest is to NY for Penny & either David Lee or Trevor Ariza. The expanded version could bring back a Crawford and Nene.
5. The nightmarish dissappointment for me all year has been the lack of fresh blood to watch develop. With no 1st round pick or exciting young free agent to turn the keys over to the year has been a bore. Now there is a bit of hope.
6. Who cares if the Magic give up a pick greater than 5 next year. Other than Player of the Year Nelson they have never figured out what to do with those picks anyway.
7. Really looking forward to the next move. 3 or 4 new faces make the rest of the season interesting.
8. Once Francis is gone the team can resign Battie, Diener, Stevenson & Kasun if they care to and have an affordable roster. The summer of '07 after Hill comes off the books they will be somewhere from $10 to $15 million under the cap to try for either another superstar or a couple of free agents above the Mid-Level Exemption.
I see a bit of hope.
At 8:28 AM,
Big Figure said…
Matt your being so negative,if you can point out all the negatives,then logically you should be able to point out some of the positives!First calling arroyo a high priced pg that we dont need is wrong,the fact that jameer and keyon have foot problems means we need all the point guards we can get,and also now keyon can play the back-up shooting guard minutes,which means we only have three pg's (jameer,carlos,trav)! After steve is traded,keyon or carlos will become your starter,which would finally give us a true point guard in the starting line-up,both are pass first guys,this trade was exactly what we needed to give us instant depth,jameer,deshawn,hedo,dwight & tony can start,while carlos,keyon,grant,pat/darko & mario can all come off the bench and the best thing about that is the fact that now we have a healthy team,pat's minutes should be scaled back some!
At 8:46 AM,
Big Figure said…
Oh and i made it a point to say,that if darko was traded here,we should all give him the benefit of the doubt,lets not crucify him if he has a bad game or isnt the defender or rebounder that dwight is,lets give him some time and see if in the summer he can take that starting spot from battie,i think he can with a whole summer with coach hill,he's gonna come off the bench b/c he and arroyo dont know the things we run yet,and the fact that battie is a warrior means battie deserves to start,but what we all want to see is our second unit start to out play teams,with carlos,keyon & grant out on the floor,darko's gonna look like an all-star,those guys will get him so many easy looks,lay-ups or that 16-20 footer,having quality depth makes you very hard to beat,some nights we know battie's gonna be outsized,and then coach can come with a seven footer with a shot,its like everytime we sub,coach can come with a player that could actually be better than the starter,how many teams can say that,we're gonna be much more dangerous and alot harder to beat,just b/c on any given night we'll be able to throw out so many different combination's of healthy players,only thing we're waiting on now is whether steve will be traded or not,i'm happy that management did something to stop the bleeding!
At 8:54 AM,
Big Figure said…
As it currently stands i dont see the magic picking in the top 5 in 2007,so the pistons can have that pick where ever it comes,probably something like 11-17,b/c i see the magic being at least a middle of the road team,which would mean detroit would get a pick in the teens,which is not in anyway joe getting over on us,we got the #2 pick from him,which by the way detroit wanted to keep but just couldnt b/c of salary cap reason(resigning ben),so they can have that pick,the best part about it is,we'll still wind up bringing in a rookie though,our own pick from the 2005 draft,if the spanish guy doesnt come in 2006,then he'll probably come in 2007,giving us a first round pick,it just wasnt picked in the 2007 draft,but its still a pick!
At 10:58 AM,
Matt said…
Let me clear it up that I am not being negative but rather realist. I am sorry if it doesn't come around like that. It certainly isn't me intention.
You all are corect in your views with a respective narrow angle. Iam happy that Darko is here and I hope it makes the rest of the season interesting. Regardless Darko is a project like any other project and the question is how much is the project worth to you. If 9.5 million + a first round pick is fine with you then enjoy it. A couple of points about this trade and I will keep my peace afterwards:
1 - A successful negotiation is all about leveraging especially when you don't have a 3rd party competitor. DET needed salary cap space, and defintely not Arroyo. We would have had a salary dump of 8.5 million next year, regardless. Tell me who had a better leverage here?
2 - Darko has been in DET for the last 2.5 years. Granted Brown doesn't like rookies, but this year he was under Saunders. Coaches give players game time minutes based on what they see from them in practice. We second guess coaches all the time, especilly when we don't trust them. Saunders didn't give Darko many minutes neither. Is there a conspiracy to deprive Darko from minutes he is entitled to?
3 - If we accept that this season is gone, then Arroyo becomes a burden at 4 million a year until 2008. As soon as Jameer comes back we could do even without Steve, and for next year we need a good veteran in the 1.5 to 2 million range for backup duty at guards position. Remember Augmon can play that spot this year and both Grant and Hedo can fill in, as well.
Let's put aside all shortcomings and mismanagement that resulted in Steve's situation. Steve is an all-Star and he played well last year despite all the hardship and controvesies. I am not a proponent of going under salary cap at all costs and then going into free agency market to grab the pieces you need. There are teams in the league that have gone through that cycle multiple times. Heck we went through it a few times too, either at a smaller or larger scale. If DET's model is any indication you should hang on to the right pieces and wait ptiently until the right moment to add that missing piece. In the meantime you make sure that you retain the pieces that you don't want to lose. That's why I totally disagree with salary dump as a focal point. In any business you should look for venues to offset your necessary costs, and if you don't find such venues then you cut costs. The same rule applies to salarydumping in NBA. Many teams in NBA are operating above cap and offseting the costs throgh other venues ... like DAL and SA.
Now the genreally accepted rule of thumb is that you need two star-level playes on a contending team. So if you have two and for some reasons one is not a fit you don't dump him, but rather wait to trade him for a realtively comparable player. I sincerely believe that Steve could be managed in short term until a reasonable trade comes along. An Andre Miller sort of player although not at the same level. Trading him for Crawford type of players is a waste of star, and believe me they are hard to come by through draft except in cases of true luck.
At 12:14 PM,
Matt said…
You are right, Pete, in your calculation of the cost. Had we decided that we are not going to replace Cato and be content on Battie and Kasun to man the C position we would have had 19 million dollars extra to spend as we wished even partially on a center. The problm is everybody is so content on Kicking Francis out that they don't see the large picture looking from all angles. Heck, give Francis to me and I'll make an exemplary citizen out of him.
At 1:23 PM,
Matt said…
Another word of wisdom from Wise Otis: "You have to look at him, at his age and say, 'If he were in the draft this year, where would he go?' " Smith said. "He would go pretty high." Listen Otis, hypotheticals are fools' logic. Good or bad, this guy has a record in NBA.
At 1:35 PM,
Matt said…
The following is a quote from AP's report: "During practices and workouts, Milicic often looked impressive scoring on an array of low-post moves, mid-range jumpers and 3-pointers. His skills rarely carried over into games."
I hope that Darko would be able to flourish in Orlando. He certainly can shoot.
At 1:37 PM,
Big Figure said…
Matt,i cant stand losing,and thats the bottom line,try and find some positive's for me,i know you can point out the negative's!
At 1:43 PM,
OVERWADED said…
A few thoughts... One, after the 17 year old foreign kid joined the Pistons for 2 years, and didn't play at all because of Larry Brown, pretty much all of his confidence was gone. If you recall, about a year ago they sat down with him, and talked to him, pretty much telling him his time would come. Darko had started to talk about not liking his situation because he wasn't getting any chance besides scrub minutes, which is normal in the NBA, but he took it as an insult. The point, the kid lost all confidence under Brown. And then this year comes around, and Detroit is on a mission to take the title, they still have two of the best bigs in the NBA starting, and one of the best big reserves in McDyess coming off the bench. Nothing was ever going to happen for Darko in Detroit.
As far as mentioned about Darko being a free agent, As the paper reported, we have him for the remainder of this season, plus 2 additional, so we don't have to worry about him being a free agent just yet. Two and a half seasons, with normal playing time should give us a nice idea what he is capable of, and I'm predicting he'll be better than anyone here expects.
Francis was a 3 time starting all-star. Or, did he just win the popularity contest for 3 years because of his sick dunks? There are always a few all-stars that get voted on that don't deserve it. Yao for one... He's like the default starting West center no matter what he does, or doesn't do. Carter used to get voted on every year even when he was hurt, or after his numbers went to hell because he wasn't trying anymore in Toronto. So it is what it is... I didn't follow Francis game to game while he was in Houston. I know the results, pretty much never winning anything, and problems with Van Gundy. Obviously I've had a chance to follow him with the Magic; last year he could have made a case to be an all-star, and lets not even talk about this year.
At 2:30 PM,
Matt said…
Big Figure, the last quote that I posted was a positive one. You folks are all excited for your own reasons looking at the issue from the angle that you choose. I didn't see anybody challenging the cost equation of the trade, as Pete and I have pointed out.
As for Francis, say what you want, but he has always been a star-level player, and if I am not mistaken, 2 out of 3 times he was voted in All-Star games by coaches. I respect your opinion if you say he should exit right away, although I disagree, but let's be respectful the way we address him since at least for one year he palyed hard and gave us some meorable moments.
At 3:34 PM,
Mike from Illinois said…
Just read an interesting column by Steve Kerr online at (www.sports.yahoo.com). He said the trade makes sense for both teams, but that the big winner is Darko. Kerr thinks that there is no reason Darko shouldn't get 30-35 minutes of playing time a game with the Magic (since the Magic will not make the playoffs). Kerr goes on to say that if Darko is on the floor the same time as DHoward, that Dwight would draw the tougher defensive matchup, leaving Darko with good opportunities to score.
As I mentioned in a previous post, look how Jermaine O'Neal's career took off once he got playing time with the Pacers, after sitting on the end of Portland's bench for 4 years. It will certainly be worth the cost moneywise of this trade if Darko can prove what a talented 7-footer he really is.
I think another trade will happen with the Magic by the Feb 23rd deadline because of all the point guards we now have (unless the prognosis on Nelson's injured foot continues to be poor).
Matt, I wish you could volunteer your services to the Magic to make Steve an exemplary citizen, as you said you could do. It would be nice if we could have the Francis who plays hard and shows his considerable talents every game rather than the Francis who decides to turn his play 'off' whenever something is bothering him.
I'm really optimistic about the second half of the season now. The Magic have a good chance to show us they can be a solid playoff contender next year.
At 3:45 PM,
Matt said…
Mike, I am surprised that you being good with numbers think the cost is fine. Remember it's 19 million if no additional center is signed, and 13 million if a center is singed at 5 million. What Orlando Magic needs is a good business re-structuring. I don't think this ownership may appreciate my services since my first order of business would be to fire the coach.
At 4:01 PM,
Big Figure said…
Matt,one question,would it be worth it if the magic made the playoffs?
At 4:22 PM,
Ken said…
I'd love to see Darko come here and florish in the BSHill system. How many players have we shipped of because they couldn't break into a regular rotation, only to see them become productive players with another team. I agree with the Steve Kerr assesment that we should play Darko 30-35 minutes a night and see what he can do. What have we got to loose? We're not exactly dazzling anyone at the moment, and I really don't see us making the playoffs this year. The thing that worries me is, will BSHill give him the chance? We all think Deeener is a sharpshooter and deserves a few minutes of quality playing time, but BSHill treats him like the redheaded stepchild and locks him in the attic.
As far as another PG on this team, I think Francis is the best one who is currently not on the injured list. But all that skill is going down the toilet and dragging this team with it as long as he continues his head games. I'd give Francis til the end of the season to get his shit together and play like we know he is capable of, if not, off you go stevie boy...
At 4:26 PM,
Ken said…
matt said..."my first order of business would be to fire the coach."
I'm behind you 110% on that, matt.
At 6:48 PM,
OVERWADED said…
As Mike stated: "It would be nice if we could have the Francis who plays hard and shows his considerable talents every game rather than the Francis who decides to turn his play 'off' whenever something is bothering him".
As far as me being "respectful" about how I address Francis, that's not going to happen. He's played himself into a bitch by not trying on the court. What he is doing is basically a form of throwing games. How could you trust a teammate like that? How could you trust an employee like that? As for my feelings, he is doing this to the team I've loved long before he was around, so Francis can kiss my ass. I know what I think doesn't matter, but the Magic organization should feel something like this. They are paying him millions, and he has decided not to play. They pretty much already said he'd be benched if it wasn't for the Nelson injury and trade purposes. Once upon a time, he had my respect, but all of that is lost. So move on Francis, stop pissing on the team, the organization, and the fans; and telling them it's raining.
At 7:41 PM,
Matt said…
Big Figure, the deal on Darko is done, and there is no point in hanging on to the negatives. I made my views on numbers game clear, and now it's time to move on. I love the potentials that Darko brings to Magic, and by golly let's push for the play-offs. There is plenty of time left and no team in East is torching the Earth. When trade deadline passes, if Steve is still here he should be brought into the mix with full commitment (as he says in the commercial), and if he is not, we still have enough talents to push for it. GO MAGIC!!!
At 7:50 PM,
Big Figure said…
Matt,thats more like it,i agree,second half we should be able to make a run,we're only 5 or 6 games back!
At 7:53 PM,
Big Figure said…
And i sure dont no about steve,he could be traded,but right now i dont know what management's gonna do,b/c we sure are loaded at the point,hmmm!
At 5:24 PM,
Josh B. said…
the magic got nowhere to go but up...they got a PG to take the reigns from disappointing francis, and a forward named Darko that everyone was ranting and raving about a few years ago, then came to forget...and remember we still got the leading rebounder in the NBA under our hoop named dwight
no immediate impact, but this gives us something to work with...now we just gotta trade francis and see who we can add to our lineup
-josh
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